A SConFire Editorial
Close your eyes and imagine… you go to bed with your wife and family feeling safe and secure; thinking about what tomorrow will bring.
Later that night, your world is shattered by smoke and heat filling your room. You hear your wife screaming that she cannot see. You yell for your daughter but there is no answer. You start to panic and try to find a way out.
You think, there is a fire station right down the road and they should be here in a minute. Time drags on; minute by minute your air is getting harder to breathe. You no longer hear your wife. Your mind is becoming foggy and you feel sleepy.
Your mind screams “WHERE IS THE FIRE DEPARMENT? THEY ARE JUST DOWN THE ROAD!”
Now you are drifting off and you hear your daughter screaming outside the house. You cannot move. You cannot speak. Then… nothing…
This is a hypothetical situation, but eerily similar to the situation that occurred in Greenwood County on July 30th . An elderly couple, Mr. and Mrs Ronnie Snelling, tragically died during a fire in their home. The daughter escaped only to watch as the home burned down with her parents inside.
Why did this have to happen?! The Greenwood County Fire Coordinator, Chief Corey Grumelot, would have you believe that it was because of a Mutual Aid agreement between the City of Greenwood and Greenwood County. Could a piece of paper have caused this? Please say it isn’t so.
First let me state that SConFire attempted to contact Northwest Fire Department, the first responding station, and Chief Chad Kellum for this story. We also left a message for Greenwood County Fire Coordinator Corey Grumelot. Neither has returned our calls as of press time.
We were able to quickly get in touch with Chief Terry Strange of the Greenwood City Fire Department. In a phone call interview yesterday, he spoke candidly with SConFire about the situation.
When asked about the Mutual Aid agreement he stated, “There is a agreement that has been in place for many years. However an unwritten rule has been followed that states ‘if a life hazard is involved, either one of us would call the other for help.’”
We asked “What if someone pulled up to the front of Station #3 and said there were people trapped in a house fire just outside the city limits? What would you do?”
Chief Strange emphatically stated, “We would clear the floor and respond. At the same time we would have the dispatcher call the county and let them know what was going on. It comes down to the opportunity of saving a life.”
We asked, “when did you receive notification of this fire?”
Chief Strange “I was paged at around 5:30am and notified of the incident and the fatalities.” He went on to say “Had the initial 911 call indicated that there was an entrapment, and if we were called then, there may have been a chance. However the 2nd call that was made 6 minutes into the fire. It was at this time that dispatch was made aware of the entrapment. It was probably a good chance that we would not have been able to do anything for the couple.”
The dispatcher did not ask whether or not anyone was still in the home. By not doing this precious time was lost. This is an AUTOMATIC question that even new dispatchers know to ask.
While there are no guarantees that lives would not have been lost, the chances of survival would have been much greater had the city been dispatched with the initial alarm. Mind you, I said pretty good chance and not definite. That is for all the naysayers that will write hate mail to me.
The entrapments were reported on the 2nd 911 call. Greenwood City should have definitely been alerted at this time. This further demonstrates the breakdown in dispatch. This did not occur and the daughter continued to sit there as her parents died in the fire with no rescuers on the scene. It took firefighters 4 ½ additional minutes to arrive.
The county dispatcher should have recognized that there was a life hazard and turned in her chair and alerted the city dispatcher for GCFD to roll on the call. That’s right, you heard me. They are in the same dispatch room. Crazy huh?!
The woman did talk rather quickly and hung up just as fast on the initial call. At this time Greenwood City Station 3 should have been sent. It’s not rocket science people. It’s 3am in the morning and there it is a pretty good chance that someone is still in the home!
The mutual aid agreement clearly states that either department will ONLY request aid in the event that all of their resources were expended However, Chief Strange clearly stated that for years the unwritten rule was to automatically request assistance on any life hazard incident. This means you do not wait until you feel like calling for help or when you get in over your head on a scene. Do it THEN AND RIGHT THEN!
Stop the TURF WAR!!! The mutual aid agreement should be converted to an Automatic Aid agreement under specific circumstances. Many departments in this state use this method with great success.
On this scene, someone should have had the balls enough to request help from the station around the corner! Better to have the help and not need it, than to need the help and not have it.
The first volunteer for on scene for Northwest was an OFF DUTY City of Greenwood Firefighter!! This was 8 minutes into the call; almost 2 ½ minutes before the first truck arrived on scene. Make the call and deal with the consequences later. It is better to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission.
If the chief gets pissed off, then screw him. He isn’t there, you are. You and only you have that situation under your command. You need to man up and make the right decision.
This is basic NIMS Training that is MANDATED by the State of South Carolina! How many in Greenwood County have all the proper NIMS training as well as FF1 and FF2? That is a good question to ask.
Greenwood County Fire Coordinator Corey Grumelot made a comment in his interview with Channel 7 News that “Firefighters move with a greater sense of urgency when human life could be at stake.” WHAT?! WHAT?! Are you kidding me?! That is your rationale? So you are saying your firefighters move slower when it is “just a fire?!” Come on! I know of volunteer departments in this state that can get out in less than 6 minutes and get on scene with 25+ firefighters, at anytime of the day.
I asked multiple firefighter from numerous agencies and they all responded they same way. The adrenaline may ramp up a notch with a confirmed entrapment but we are already moving as quickly as possible at 3am for a structure fire.
Grumelot goes on to state that because of a mutual aid agreement, Greenwood County Fire Stations cannot request assistance until all of their resources have been expended. This wording would not hold up in court. I would be hard pressed to find anyone who would sue or fire anyone going to a structure fire to assist another fire department.
This incident demonstrates the glaring deficiencies in the dispatch procedures and response criteria for Greenwood County’s Emergency Services. The argument that the binding agreement prevents calling for assistance until all resources are expended does not hold water if there is and ‘unwritten agreement’ regarding life endangerment.
Whatever disagreements from past experience exist, today is the day to put them where belong, in the past. The time has come for every department, whether they be paid, volunteer, or combination to come together and hammer out Automatic Aid agreements.
This is not an ‘us versus them’ situation. This is us, the entire fire service, versus the damages and life-stealing rampage that is fire. This is us, the trained and willing, helping our friends, neighbors, and communities when they need it.
Coordinators and chiefs who do not agree are living in the past. It is time to work towards OUR future.
Grant Mishoe, Editor-in-Chief
SConFire.com
Also on SConFire…
- Folly Beach Backs Out of Charleston County Consolidated 911 Center – June 30, 2011
- Old Fort FF’s Work Structure Fire – January 5, 2012
- Greenwood FF’s Battle House Fire – April 28, 2011
- Fire Station Out of Commission – September 23, 2010
It seems as if the mistakes start in dispatch….as most mistakes do, and it just snowballs because someone doesn’t want another department to play in their sandbox!!! The people you protect don’t give a damn what it says on the side of the truck, they just want help in a quick and efficent fashion! This seems to be a problem all over the state…..when are we gonna stop these childish games, and all get along and work together. For gods sake, with all the budget cuts, lack of money and all the requirements placed on us by the state….you would think we would all want to work together to accomplish a common goal. Just answer me this…..to the dispatcher that didn’t ask any questions about entrapment…..are you able to sleep well at night? Wal-mart is hiring!
Why don’t you place the blame with politics that put this agreement in place to start with. If we could take out the politics things would go alot better.
I am so disgusted with the way that some of you are bashing the faithful VOLUNTEER Fire Departments of Greenwood. They all do a magnificent job all out of care, concern, and respect for their community. They risk their lives every time they go on a call. (Remember VOLUNTEER ) and all you good people can do is find ways to try and beat them down. I constantly read comments that people make about why they did something or why they did not do something. REMEMBER these are men and women who leave their families to go save someone else’s home or life. I agree this was a horrific tragedy but boundaries between city and county had nothing to do with this couple losing their lives. Yes, in hind sight a lot of things should have probably been done differently but these procedures have been followed for years. Maybe things should be changed now because of this tragedy but don’t ridicule the Volunteer Fire Departments for following the same rules and guidelines that they have been told to follow. THANK YOU TO ALL OF THE VOLLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS IN GREENWOOD COUNTY FOR ALL THAT YOU DO. YOU ARE GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!
It’s not realistic to say take out the politics and we would be a lot better. The taxpayers continue to pay for volunteer fire coverage and thats what they get. If you want to have better fire coverage it will cost you.
Running a good fire dept. will not come cheap. Remember this tragedy come election time. Elect politicians that see you have a fire protection problem and are willing to address it. This includes raising taxes and stopping wastefull spending. Lord forbid we may have to not fund a new park or pay for a fancy library this year to get good fire protection. This includes at least a few paid firefighters.
I agree we need to work together but expecting a district,city or town to fund your District,city or towns self inflicted problems is not the answer. Stay Safe
This tragedy should be a learning experience for everyone involved. There was a break down of communication and collaboration on many levels. Instead of pointing fingers, everyone should pull together and develop a strategic plan for preventing this from happening again. I respect the firefighters who did everything they could to save their lives. Sad situation, now lets learn from it.
Tracy,
The boundaries and the mutual plan had a lot to do with these fatalities. Along with a dispatcher breakdown, turf war attitudes. If you know ANYTHING about this area you would know what is going on.
I applaud volunteers and the job they do. Hell I was one for many years. The volunteer system is strong in this state. However with more and more rules and regulations coming down the pipe for a person to qualified to fight fire, it is killing the volunteer system.
On that note… a statement was made that if you want quality protection you have to pay for it. Paying county taxes for a volunteer department… you get what you pay for. That may be true in some cases.
Cainhoy Fire Department in Berkeley County is the poster child for this! The never answer their calls and Charleston Fire has to bail them out a majority of the time. That has got to stop! Some volunteer departments need to buck up or shut up.
On the other hand you have volunteer departments like South Lynches Fire Department in Florence County. I would go to the gates of hell with those guys and put them up against anyone, Paid, Combination, or Volunteer. They have a good system and can put 25+ people on scene pretty much any time of day.
Fact is that this fire has been growing for years. It just happened to stop with the Snellings on that fateful night.
We all know that in recessions or time of financial crisis the first thing to go is the fire department. Cut the funds! It doesn’t matter that they drive a 1975 POS Engine that drop more water going to the fire that on the fire. It doesn’t matter that Your bunker gear has more holes in it than the Ozone Layer. It doesn’t matter that you pay for fuel out of your own pocket to keep the truck running.
None of that matters… to the bean counters. It matters to the brothers and sisters out there that do these things. However someone has to step up and take the bull by the horns and do something about this. If they don’t we will still be having these conversations in the years to come.
Grant Mishoe, Editor-in-Chief
SConFire.com
Tracy,
I agree. I am so proud of ALL firefighters who volunteer to protect and serve!!! They do a great job!!
Mishoe,
The comment Grumelot made: “Firefighters move with a greater sense of urgency when human life could be at stake” is absolutely accurate. Wouldn’t you agree that when you are dealing with a situation where lives are at stake??? There is a greater urgency as opposed to let’s say a grass fire. All situations are urgent, but when people are involved I believe it is much more urgent and handled differently. The priorities change. Search and rescue or just extinguish. I think that’s Grumelot’s rationale.
If the dispatcher would have toned the city fire dept, they would have got on the radio and said that’s in the county and would NOT have responded! But of course Chief Strange wouldn’t tell that in the interview, how would that make him look?!
GWD Citizen,
I find that hard to believe. There are alot of ifs in this scenario. IF the original 911 call the info was there about the entrapment. IF there was an automatic aid agreement in place then this would all be a moot point. IF the city and county had a better working relationship then this would all be a moot point.
That is fact…
Grant Mishoe, Editor-in-Chief
SConFire.com
Tragic,
Good points… however I am speaking only of personal experience. If there was a house fire at 3am in the morning and you knew that someone was outside and made it out of the fire, EVEN without the notification of an entrapment, chances are pretty good that there is an entrapment.
I was trained to always treat every structure fire as if someone was entrapped. Meaning do not waste time. Get you gear on and get to the scene as fast and as SAFE as possible.
You are 1 of more than 100 Firefighters I have talked to or received emails from in the past 4 days that think this comment was not the brightest in the world.
I have nothing against volunteers. South Carolina is 80% volunteer and I think they do a fabulous job! What I am concerned of is this “mutual aid” agreement and the circumstances in which calls are dispatched in Greenwood County.
I think the first step has already been taking. By Greenwood County going to a complete system with all volunteer departments participating; that is fantastic! Chief Grumelot has a long road ahead of him. This road does not need to be roughed up with issues such as this incident.
I applaud Greenwood County for taking this step. Now let us watch and see if they continue to move forward.
Grant Mishoe, Editor-in-Chief
SConFire.com
Grant,
You stated to Tracy that if they knew anything about the area, they would know what’s going on. How do YOU know so much about Greenwood County and its volunteer departments? Seems to me all you know is what you’ve read, what Corey Grumelot has said, and what Terry Strange has said. -and on a side note, Corey Grumelot is the Fire Coordinator, NOT a fire chief.
Of course Chief Strange is not going to comment about how the City FD would simply advise dispatch that the call was in the county and they would not respond. How would that make him look? Don’t let him deceive you. The City isn’t as willing to run backup calls to the county as he’d lead you to believe.
And just because you read on the internet about how the County is consolidating its fire service, be sure to get your facts straight before commenting on them.
Northwest Volunteer Fire Department is an ISO Class 5. While it could be better you have to agree it could be worse. You asked the question of how many firefighters in Greenwood County are FF 1 & FF 2. Have you asked Corey Grumelot that question? Oh wait, don’t bother, because he couldn’t tell you. Why, you may ask? Because he doesn’t care about the firefighters in Greenwood County. Before you go making comments and acting like you know what’s going on in Greenwood County, you should get your facts straight.
You made a comment about South Lynches FD being able to staff 25+ people at a fire on any given day. What occupations do these firefighters have? If they are career firefighters, well then it only makes sense that they be able to run calls 2 out of every 3 days. Also, how many personnel are on the South Lynches FD? You see, there are plenty of factors that play into this.
You talk about how bad Greenwood County Fire Service is, but yet, you really don’t know anything about it. And you certainly don’t know anything about Northwest Volunteer Fire Department.
First of all let me say that I am in complete agreement with Tracy and Gwd Fire Fighter. Secondly I would like to clarify that the first person on the scene of this particular incident was not a member of Northwest but another station in the county, and if this issue is about people calling for help from the city fire department when lives are in danger, don’t you think that a city fireman would have been the first person to do that. So, if a city fireman himself didn’t call for their assistance, then that should tell you something about what their response would have been. Finally, do people have nothing better to do than sit around and bash a volunteer fire department who does the job out of the goodness of their hearts, and do you even stop to consider the feelings and emotions that the family and the firefighters are feeling. For those of you who may not know, the feeling of helplessnes and the sadness that is felt after an incident like this one are horrific. They can make grown men cry, and young firefighters that have never experienced this before are changed forever, some do not sleep good for weeks. So next time you have the urge to go and bash a fire department, why don’t you just consider putting the issue to rest and letting people move on with their lives.
GWD, I will reply to your comments by breaking them down. Cool?
You stated to Tracy that if they knew anything about the area, they would know what’s going on. How do YOU know so much about Greenwood County and its volunteer departments?
>> I have contacts all over the county as well as surrounding counties. Yes part of it is what I read but mostly it is contacts.
Seems to me all you know is what you’ve read, what Corey Grumelot has said, and what Terry Strange has said. -and on a side note, Corey Grumelot is the Fire Coordinator, NOT a fire chief.
>> Fire Chief is a term of respect. He in essence is just that however under a different name. It is simply a form of respect for the position.
Of course Chief Strange is not going to comment about how the City FD would simply advise dispatch that the call was in the county and they would not respond. How would that make him look? Don’t let him deceive you. The City isn’t as willing to run backup calls to the county as he’d lead you to believe.
>>We are talking about the implementation of an automatic aid agreement under certain circumstances. One of those being a live hazard. Everything that was posted was based on fact checked through several sources. Chief Strange said he does not want to run every call into the county. This would leave his district uncovered. That is not fair to the tax payers of the City that PAY for that service. What I am talking about it calling either one of the departments under certain criteria.
And just because you read on the internet about how the County is consolidating its fire service, be sure to get your facts straight before commenting on them.
>>What comment did I make that was derogatory for the consolidation of the county fire service. This is a good thing. It is a start of a standardization of the fire service in Greenwood County. What is the problem with that fact? Do you not believe that it should not be consolidated?
Northwest Volunteer Fire Department is an ISO Class 5. While it could be better you have to agree it could be worse. You asked the question of how many firefighters in Greenwood County are FF 1 & FF 2.
>> I have attempted to ask this question and many more, however I have nor received any call backs on my requests.
Have you asked Corey Grumelot that question? Oh wait, don’t bother, because he couldn’t tell you. Why, you may ask? Because he doesn’t care about the firefighters in Greenwood County.
>> I never stated that he did not care about the Firefighters of Greenwood County. Please indicate where I stated this. Why would he take the job if he didn’t care. Please indicate where I stated this.
Before you go making comments and acting like you know what’s going on in Greenwood County, you should get your facts straight.
>> The facts speak for themselves.
Fact 1 – Dispatch communication during this incident was severely lacking. There was serious deficiency on both sides of the 911 call. The lack of proper information from the caller and the lack of probing for information from the dispatcher.
Fact 2 – Common sense was not implemented during this incident.
Fact 3 – A mutual aid agreement exists.
Fact 4 – It doesn’t take into account for life hazards.
Fact 5 – The nearest county station was miles away and the closest station was a a city station less than 1 mile away. This engine would have been fully staffed and most likely would have made a difference in the outcome of this fire.
Fact 6 – Barring traffic or any unexpected issues, The nearest county station’s response time was a little over 10 minutes. The closet city station would have been on scene within5 to 6 minutes. That is from getting off the floor to arrival on scene.
Fact 7 – Two people are dead as a result of this fire.
You made a comment about South Lynches FD being able to staff 25+ people at a fire on any given day. What occupations do these firefighters have? If they are career firefighters, well then it only makes sense that they be able to run calls 2 out of every 3 days. Also, how many personnel are on the South Lynches FD?
>>There is a wide range of occupations for South Lynches Firefighters. They have over 125 personnel. They are volunteers for the most part. The remaining personnel are, for the most part, administrative staff. They are an Rural ISO Rating of 4 (straight/rural).
You see, there are plenty of factors that play into this.
>> Absolutely true!
You talk about how bad Greenwood County Fire Service is, but yet, you really don’t know anything about it.
>> Again I ask you to indicate where I talk about how bad the Greenwood County Fire Service is. I never stated this.
And you certainly don’t know anything about Northwest Volunteer Fire Department.
>> I know what I know through contacts and plain facts from interviews and investigative reports
Grant Mishoe, Editor-in-Chief
SConFire.com
Grant,
Your response to Gwd Firefighter has some flaws. While the term Fire Chief does show respect, it is used for people who actually hold the position. Corey Grumelot was hired as the Fire Coordinator to be a liason between the fire departments and other agencies. He is not over any fire department and is NOT the county chief.
Having the contacts at Northwest that I do, and knowing the people like I do, I know for a fact that if you had called the station and left a message on the answering machine, they would have returned your call.
You never said that Corey didn’t care about the firefighters in the county. Gwd Firefighter did. He was just giving you more information about Corey, since you seem to be lacking in that area.
In reference to your FACT 5. Can Chief Strange HONESTLY say that his people would have gone in the house without having additional personnel available for a Rapid Intervention Team? Station 3 is staffed with 4 people which include 2 firefighters, an Officer, and an Engineer.
Of course South Lynches is going to be able to staff 25+ people on any given day with over 125 personnel on the roster as well as paid personnel (about 1/5 of their personnel). I’m not saying South Lynches isn’t a damn good fire department because they are. However, I’m simply saying that with Northwest having about 50 or so personnel they aren’t going to be able to staff 25+ people at a fire. But, you have to remember that Florence is a much larger county than Greenwood.
You know what you know through contacts. Do you actually have contacts at Northwest? Or do you just have contacts in Greenwood County that THINK they know Northwest?
And finally. I would like to know if you actually talked to people such as Corey Grumelot and chiefs of Northwest. If not, how can you give an HONEST and UNBIASED statement.
Think about the People:
Your argument, likewise, has some flaws. I’m quite sure Chief Strange and his department are well aware of the exemption in the RIT protocol that allows for entry when entrapment is known, so I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t be an issue.
To everyone else:
I’m also positive from knowing the individuals involved, both at Greenwood City and Northwest, that had either station requested help from each other, especially if entrapment was involved, both would back each other up. Since I seem to recall that Greenwood City just recently assisted Northwest with a rescue from a water tower, I’m struggling to understand why people on here are trying to malign Chief Strange by saying his answers were deceitful. Obviously, as Chief Strange said, if they are called to assist when a life is at stake, they will respond. The facts back up his assertion.
Further, I think it is sad that that some on here wish to put blame on a department that was never called. If you stop and think about that, it does not make any sense. Likewise, unless people are willing to make county council provide for the fire stations in the county to be staffed 24 hours a day, there’s no need to try to assign blame to Northwest or any other volunteer department.
Finally, a terrible tragedy occurred. Instead of getting personal with the comments, people should focus on the issues that made this tragedy possible. I know that some have tried, but some others have not. It has always struck me as astounding that Greenwood County has paid people manning the trash centers, but not a single paid firefighter its fire departments. Curious, no?
Think about the people,
I will answer your message in parts.
Your response to Gwd Firefighter has some flaws. While the term Fire Chief does show respect, it is used for people who actually hold the position. Corey Grumelot was hired as the Fire Coordinator to be a liason between the fire departments and other agencies. He is not over any fire department and is NOT the county chief.
>> I apologize to Mr. Grumelot for adding the title of Chief to his name.
Having the contacts at Northwest that I do, and knowing the people like I do, I know for a fact that if you had called the station and left a message on the answering machine, they would have returned your call.
>> Are you insinuating that I am not telling the truth concerning the phone calls. The fact is I called Northwest Station #30 and Mr. Grumelot’s Office and left messages almost 48 HOURS before I wrote the editorial. Both of which were not returned.
You never said that Corey didn’t care about the firefighters in the county. Gwd Firefighter did. He was just giving you more information about Corey, since you seem to be lacking in that area.
>> hmmm… ok…
In reference to your FACT 5. Can Chief Strange HONESTLY say that his people would have gone in the house without having additional personnel available for a Rapid Intervention Team? Station 3 is staffed with 4 people which include 2 firefighters, an Officer, and an Engineer.
>> If there was a reported life hazard then I state most unequivocally YES! This also goes for Northwest and any other fire department in Greenwood County. Some of you think that I have a problem with Northwest or Mr. Grumelot. That is simply not true. I am against the lack of an automatic aid agreement, and the lack of coordination between the different entities.
Of course South Lynches is going to be able to staff 25+ people on any given day with over 125 personnel on the roster as well as paid personnel (about 1/5 of their personnel). I’m not saying South Lynches isn’t a damn good fire department because they are. However, I’m simply saying that with Northwest having about 50 or so personnel they aren’t going to be able to staff 25+ people at a fire. But, you have to remember that Florence is a much larger county than Greenwood.
>> You got me on that one. This comment was meant for the response time itself and not the number responding.
You know what you know through contacts. Do you actually have contacts at Northwest? Or do you just have contacts in Greenwood County that THINK they know Northwest?
>> They are quite familiar with the situation, the departments, and the history
And finally. I would like to know if you actually talked to people such as Corey Grumelot and chiefs of Northwest.
>> We already established that phone calls were not returned from the time I called until nearly 48 hours later when the editorial was written.
If not, how can you give an HONEST and UNBIASED statement.
>> This editorial was written on fact that was gathered from sources within the county and city as well as reporters via email and phone who are covering the story.
Grant Mishoe, Editor-in-Chief
SConFire.com
We should all sit back and not lay blame but seek solution. I have always stated to me students either help a problem or shut up because Monday morning quaterback gets people defensive and when that happens they stop listening/learning.Its pathetic to be talking about what Coreys title is or not omg people died due to a system flaw and your talking about whether to call him Chief or not. The city didnt even get a call and to date have never to the county no we not coming to help so not sure why they are even in this. The county should break down the events of this call and work with county and city to fix it. Not sure why your shocked that it takes a death to change things because 19 years at this its always been that way. Rules and Reg are here because somewhere somebody did or did not do something. True you cant fault Volunteers for response time and if one issue here is lack of training volunteers do not get a break because they do it for free they have the same standards as paid, if the county needs better response time they should have took that money they spent sending people to seminars and put some full time on.You cant complain about response time and also complain there raising my taxes. I know nothing about Greenwood and dont claim to but I feel all should focus on How can we do better next time to help our fellow man and Help each other. Stop blaming and remember YOU GO WE GO I think that means the good and the bad…..